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#05 - Living Impartially - 2/24/2008 10:12:52 AM    Scott Ross   Posts: 174 Joined: 2/20/2007 Status: offline Heaven and Earth  are not benevolent. To them men are like straw dogs destined for sacrifice. The Man of Calling is not benevolent, To him men are like straw dogs destined for sacrifice. The space between Heaven and Earth is like a flute: empty, and yet it does not collapse; when moved more and more emerges from it. But many words exhaust themselves on it. It is better to guard the ‘within’.                                                             Richard Wilhelm     The Tao doesn’t take sides; it gives birth to both good and evil. The Master doesn’t take sides; she welcomes both saints and sinners.   The Tao is like a bellows: it is empty yet infinitely capable. The more you use it, the more it produces; the more you talk of it, the less you understand.   Hold on to the center. Stephen Mitchell     Heaven and earth are impartial; they see the 10,000 things as straw dogs. The sage is not sentimental; he treats all his people as straw dogs.   The sage is like heaven and earth; To him none are especially dear, nor is there anyone he disfavors. He gives and gives, without condition, offering his treasures to everyone.   Between heaven and earth is a space like a bellows; empty and inexhaustible, the more it is used, the more it produces.   Hold on to the center. Man was made to sit quietly and find the truth within. Dr. Wayne Dyer     Yin and Yang aren’t sentimental. They exist without moralizing. They act regardless of our wishes within the ebb and flow Of every pregnant moment.   The space between yin and yang is like a bellows – empty, yet infinitely full. The more it yields, The more it fills.   Countless words Count less Than the silenct balance Between yin and yang.   Ralph Alan Dale   "corrected typo" < Message edited by Scott Ross -- 7/26/2008 4:38:21 PM > _____________________________ *Smiles, takes another deep breath, suspends thought* Post #: 1

RE: #5 - Living Impartially - 3/6/2008 8:33:40 PM    Scott Ross   Posts: 174 Joined: 2/20/2007 Status: offline According to Stephen Mitchell, "straw dogs were ritual objects, venerated before the ceremony but afterward abandoned and trampled underfoot". I see this as Lao-tzu telling us that life is hollow or empty. There is no one or no-thing giving life importance beyond what we decide it to be. I know this flies in the face of a benevolent God but hear me out. The word I've seen used here is impartial. Within Tao or God, there are no favorites, or sides, or preferential treatment. But "Benevolent" (to me) implies that God is good and that one who believes shall be rewarded. I don't know about you, but I can name many examples that just don't fit. It's like opposing forces going to war and both asking God for victory. I see it more as "Life is extremely fair". Within Tao or God Consciousness, our reality is the result of an action, an intention, of karma, etc. There is no one pulling the puppet strings. Our perception and interpretation of events is what creates duality, or "right and wrong", us and them, happiness and depression. Therefore, the space between "heaven and earth" is that place before perception, definition, interpretation, naming 10,000 things. It is that place where life is fair. And if we can rest within this state, then the fullness of life radiates through us. Our challenge is to live this without naming this...or so I think! _____________________________ *Smiles, takes another deep breath, suspends thought* (in reply to Scott Ross) Post #: 2

RE: #5 - Living Impartially - 3/12/2008 1:44:37 AM    Stone   Posts: 5 Joined: 3/11/2008 Status: offline I would like to start by breaking apart the sections within 5 in order to explain my skewed view of the ‘Tao te Ching’.  Also, it is late for me and I have obsessed enough for the day.  This post might be a bit out there.   The first part: I feel that there is a discrepancy within the different translations (as with all translations).  In some, there is talk of heaven and earth, others talk of nature, and others tao.  Granted, nature does comprise itself of the heavenly stars and earth, but the combination of the two is the compilation of duality -  yin and yang, But nature is not Tao.  Heaven and earth are not Tao.  Both ideas do follow Tao, but to follow and to be are quite different.  I am not saying that Tao is the Almighty either, and to worship it as blindly as the worldly religions follow their beliefs is over stating things a bit.  Actually, in the previous chapter Lao zi stated that Tao has always been and existed before God.  Tao has always been, and God is its expression (Scott, I am not attacking your post).    I do appreciate Stephen Mitchell’s translation of the 5th chapter.  It sits well with me, resonates with me at the core, however, I think the translation is wrong.  I have no authority to dispute his translation, I don’t even read Chinese, modern or the Ancient glyphs.  So my thought on this is completely unfounded.    With that said:   I think that the ‘nature’ translation is more appropriate here.  This chapter is about Nature: the 5 elements.  Nature has no compassion, it does not differentiate between good and evil, for these concepts are irrelevant.  The sage, too, has no concept of good and evil, and seems cold-hearted to those observing him/her.    I had no idea what straw dogs were until Scott’s post.  With this new understanding, comes the following B.S…   Nature and the Sage are a part of the 10,000 manifestations, therefore are an expression of Tao, maintaining a surface existence.  Nature nourishes life and feeds off death: a wonderful symbiotic relationship.  It is all about creating and destroying (not the center / core).  The sage, who treats people like straw dogs, venerates them and then discards them - creating and destroying.  To me, all this seems to be a focus on the fringe (not the core/center).  So what is the core / center?  As you know it is described in the second part.    2nd Part: Tao is like the bellows…full of hot air.  Just kidding (a little).  Tao is the hollow vessel.  The useful part is the emptiness within.  It is inexhaustible, bottomless… (Verse 4), but the door (the empty space that leads out of our box), is described in Verse 1.  I love playing with numbers…. 1 plus 4?  The 3rd part?  Too many words…I have successfully crushed that into the ground (Natures doormat).     (in reply to Scott Ross) Post #: 3

RE: #5 - Living Impartially - 3/2/2010 3:27:51 PM    ChiDragon   Posts: 12 Joined: 2/28/2010 From: California Status: offline Chapter 5 01. Heaven and Earth have no mercy, 02. Treating all things as straw dogs. 03. Sages have no mercy, 04. Treating people as straw dogs. 05. In-between-Heaven-and-Earth 06. Is like a windbox, 07. Vacuous but inexhaustible, 08. When in motion, it produces more yet. 09. Excessive words accelerate failure. 10. Prefer to stay with vacuous quietness. Note: This is a translation of a native scholar. Stone... Your points are well taken. I would like to add a few words. In line 1: It is ok as is because it is true. In line 3: LaoTze did not say what he meant. It is not true because a wise ruler does have mercy, but LaoTze said it opposite. If one read it literally, it says: A wise ruler is cold blooded and emotionless. It makes a good ruler sounded like that he is a tyrant; and that is very incoherent. Sorry, that is how the way classic text was written. It was written in metaphor, therefore, one must read it metaphorically. Metaphorically, it was suggesting: A wise ruler has emotions too, just like other human beings, which might lead him to be a tyrant. Therefore, in order for him to maintain as a wise ruler, he must do away with his emotions by modeling Nature and become emotionless. It, also, simply means that the law has no mercy since the ruler is the law. Hence, the law has no mercy, so justice can be served. < Message edited by ChiDragon -- 3/2/2010 3:30:18 PM > _____________________________ CD speaks doesn't know TTC knows doesn't speak (in reply to Stone) Post #: 4

RE: #5 - Living Impartially - 3/3/2010 3:29:01 PM    ChiDragon   Posts: 12 Joined: 2/28/2010 From: California Status: offline Scott... Scott:  According to Stephen Mitchell, "straw dogs were ritual objects, venerated before the ceremony but afterward abandoned and trampled underfoot". The above statement corresponds with the philosophy of its origin. Scott: The word I've seen used here is impartial. Within Tao or God, there are no favorites, or sides, or preferential treatment.  But "Benevolent" (to me) implies that God is good and that one who believes shall be rewarded. Yes,  in Chapter 5, 'impartial' is the keyword. However, Tao and God cannot be mentioned in the same breath.  With God, there is that one who believes shall be rewarded which is a preferential treatment.  With Tao, regardless one believes in Tao or not , there are no favorites, or sides, or preferential treatment. _____________________________ CD speaks doesn't know TTC knows doesn't speak (in reply to Scott Ross) Post #: 5

RE: #5 - Living Impartially - 3/3/2010 4:02:04 PM    ChiDragon   Posts: 12 Joined: 2/28/2010 From: California Status: offline Stone... Stone: "The first part: I feel that there is a discrepancy within the different translations (as with all translations).  In some, there is talk of heaven and earth, others talk of nature, and others tao.  Granted, nature does comprise itself of the heavenly stars and earth, but the combination of the two is the compilation of duality -  yin and yang, But nature is not Tao.  Heaven and earth are not Tao.  Both ideas do follow Tao, but to follow and to be are quite different. " You are right. In the ancient philosophy, heaven and earth were considered as 'Nature.' As stated in Chapter 25, Tao is above Nature;  man follows earth, earth follows heaven, heaven follows Tao, Tao follows it own nature. Stone: " I am not saying that Tao is the Almighty either, and to worship it as blindly as the worldly religions follow their beliefs is over stating things a bit.  Actually, in the previous chapter Lao zi stated that Tao has always been and existed before God.  Tao has always been, and God is its expression (Scott, I am not attacking your post).    I do appreciate Stephen Mitchell’s translation of the 5th chapter.  It sits well with me, resonates with me at the core, however, I think the translation is wrong.  I have no authority to dispute his translation, I don’t even read Chinese, modern or the Ancient glyphs.  So my thought on this is completely unfounded.    With that said:   I think that the ‘nature’ translation is more appropriate here. " I agree with what you said about Stephen Mitchell's translation. The straw dogs mentioned, in Chapter 5, was an example for indicating that the ruler and sage are being impartial. Hence, they are treating all things just as an insignificant object as straw dogs. _____________________________ CD speaks doesn't know TTC knows doesn't speak (in reply to Stone) Post #: 6

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